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Rear end Binding Noise while turning sharply.

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82K views 68 replies 22 participants last post by  FletcherHubbards  
#1 ·
Hi again everyone.

I'm on week two of ownership of a 2014 TH with 26k miles 1 owner never off road in showroom condition top to bottom.

I would like to mention that this is truly my first 4X4 vehicle so I've been reading quite a bit lately on how these cars should behave normally.

So far all services and recalls are complete per Dealer. But I've noticed that the rear of the vehicle makes a grinding or binding noise, only while turning very sharply at slow speeds like in a parking lot. Sounds like it's coming from the diff area but I read it is possible it could be the brakes. I haven't read anything yet that's specific to the TH but on other similar jeeps they say the diff fluid needs to be changed or a loose pin or something in the rear brake system could have fell out or is faulty.

Much help on direction is gladly appreciated.
 
#3 ·
I'm not trying to be a total ass but is it a parking lot where the pavement is "marble" like and when you turn your wheel it sounds like its squeaking?

I was just wondering :)
 
#4 ·
It sounds like the locker might be stuck, or you have some form of mechanical issue.

Get on some dirt or other soft surface (if grass you will tear it up...). Try cycling the 4x4 selector through all modes, snow/sand/mud, etc. as well as low-range and locker and drive a figure-8 in each. Return to Auto and see if the problem goes away.

If not, it's definitely dealer-time.

EDIT: Stuck, not stock. :)
 
#6 ·
So yes I went driving on grass last weekend and put it in all the modes including 4wd low and locked the rear. I can hear the system working and went up a steep hill. But I didn't think at the time to do sharp turns. Everything seemed to work properly. It just makes a grabbing clutch type noise on sharp slow turns. So Far I try at all cost to not make sharp turns.
 
#9 ·
Update:

Dropped it off @ the dealership this morning, got a call and they say there is a portion of the driveshaft that is damaged causing some play. Tech says that is all he can verify at this time and will look further once the part arrives 3-5 days from now for install.

Of course this is all covered under warranty. Will update later next week hopefully when the work is done.

Tech says I can drive the car so they will not honor a loaner which sucks but I'm going to park it anyways. You guys think I should escalate the loaner issue?
 
#11 ·
If it's just play in the driveshaft itself, any wear or extra damage should be fixed by the replacement. There is some possibility of additional stress/wear on other driveline components but if you aren't stressing it (towing, high speed, long distance, 4-low) you should be OK.
 
#18 ·
There are disconnects at both the front (PTU) and rear (RDM). Over a year ago, there were threads with us trying to figure out when the program connects one or both points while in Auto. I used a ScanGauge, but that only reported the connect/disconnect at the PTU. Someone else had a bad drive shaft center bearing, so he could hear when the drive shaft was turning. He said the shaft turned more frequently than you would expect while in Auto; like at every cold start and for some time thereafter for example.
 
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#20 ·
There are disconnects at both the front (PTU) and rear (RDM). Over a year ago, there were threads with us trying to figure out when the program connects one or both points while in Auto. I used a ScanGauge, but that only reported the connect/disconnect at the PTU.
I'm lucky enough to have access to any technical information from any car manufacturer from work. So here is some info in regards to how the power is transferred in Auto.

Someone here in the forums also mentioned that torque is applied to the rear most of the time. Here it applies power to the rear up to 53mph where after that it is (minimal torque)

The All Wheel Drive (AWD) system requires no driver input or control. Under most driving conditions, it is passive and power is transmitted to the front wheels alone. The system functions to optimize traction and handling under the following conditions:

Anticipates slip by responding to pedal position unlike AWD systems that rely on pumps or viscous fluids to transfer torque, the system requires no front-to-rear slippage for activation. This allows the system to transfer torque in response to accelerator pedal position. If the driver is asking for a lot of power, the system immediately starts clamping the Rear Drive Unit (RDU), transferring a high percentage of power to the rear wheels. This avoids front wheel slippage, as power to propel the car is transmitted through all four tires. This mode of operation is called open-loop operation in that there is no feedback to affect the torque transfer.

Modulates torque to optimize traction on slippery surfaces a second, closed loop, operating mode uses feedback from the wheel-speed sensors to determine the appropriate torque transfer. When the front wheels slip, the Drivetrain Control Module (DTCM) tells the RDU to start clamping, sending power to the rear wheels. Attempting the same aggressive launch described above with the front wheels on ice and the rear wheels on dry pavement, the RDU sends even more torque to the rear wheels to minimize slippage and launch the vehicle. Both modes are always active and the maximum of the two is chosen. Power to the rear wheels is modulated during lost of traction while traveling at freeway speeds; for example, hydroplaning on a puddle of water, will send very little power to the rear wheels because the controller knows at those speeds a lot of power is not needed at the rear wheels.

Prevents binding during low-speed turns a third condition, which is independent of the others, uses the Electric Power Steering (ESP) steering angle sensor to determine when the vehicle is turning in a tight circle. This condition causes the DTCM to reduce amount of torque to the rear wheels to prevent binding in the driveline. The DTCM is always checking for this condition as well.

Influences handling at moderate speeds. The AWD system is used to influence vehicle dynamics. Other manufacturers limit AWD to aiding traction or providing off-road capability. They concentrate on launching the vehicle or going off road at speeds up to about 25 mph (40 km/hr). Above that speed range, they use it to limit wheel slip for traction. Additional Powertrain Control Module (PCM) calibration controls torque to the rear wheels for improved handling in the 25-65 mph (40-105 km/hr) range. In this speed range, the system utilizes torque to the rear wheels during cornering with the throttle open to make the car turn more easily - make the handling more neutral. This is more readily accomplished with an electronically controlled system, than with viscous-coupling or gerotor system that require some degree of front-to-rear slip to transfer torque to the rear wheels. Above 53 mph (113 km/hr), the control strategy provides minimal torque to the rear wheels under normal driving conditions to aid fuel economy.

Works with ESP and Traction Control the DTCM also interfaces with the ESP and traction control systems. The interface allows the ESP system to use the RDU to help gain control of the vehicle. For this purpose, torque transmitted to the rear wheels by the RDU can be reduced. The AWD system is not traction control. It only works on situations where front-to-rear traction varies, for instance, front wheels on ice, rear wheels on dry pavement or climbing steep grades. AWD does not aid side-to-side traction. ESP does that through brake intervention.
 
#19 ·
Ok so I finally got the car back and the noise is completely gone. :grin: Super happy with the service they did, they also did in fact give me a loaner last Friday when they found out it would take longer to complete.


Parts to remedy my concern.

Drive shaft Prt# 52123612AE $350
Rear-Axle Differential Prt# 68306797AB $1400
Lubricant Gear Oil Prt# 68227765AA $50

All covered under warranty.


So the noise was also coming from the rear diff as I first mentioned, Tech states that the rear diff assembly had internal damage to the clutch plates.
 
#25 · (Edited)
All most sounds like the tires were never rotated.
 
owns 2022 Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk
#26 ·
I think it is an off-lease vehicle and ill bet you are correct. What surprises me is that if it is that sensitive to tire wear, every off-lease Jeep should have a similar problem logic saying leasees don't other with maintenance? The tires "look" of but measure 5/32 different Carsense warranties engines for life(300k) to offset the risk of a poorly maintained leased vehicle engines but not the drivetrain.
 
#28 ·
Not buying this one at all. Any variance in tire diameter outside mfg. specs will throw an ABS code and possibly other traction related faults. We do not rotate tires at all, just slap on as needed. Never a problem. If someone installs the wrong size tire, it will show up immediately with an ABS warning light and the offending sensor.
Ask the Dealer to detail the diagnostics involved in this decision or find another.
 
#29 ·
Not buying this one at all. Any variance in tire diameter outside mfg. specs will throw an ABS code and possibly other traction related faults. We do not rotate tires at all, just slap on as needed. Never a problem. If someone installs the wrong size tire, it will show up immediately with an ABS warning light and the offending sensor.
Ask the Dealer to detail the diagnostics involved in this decision or find another.
I remember someone here bought a new KL that came - off the lot - with one mismatched tire (225/60 instead of 225/65 IIRC) and there was a 4WD not available message in EVIC. 2/32 does not sound like a lot to me, for sure.

Great idea to ask for details on this diagnosis. Maybe get @JeepCares involved too.
 
#32 ·
Other Mfg. are more susceptible to a small changes in revolutions per second than FCA. Ford being the worst. Having to replace an entire set of tires at 30k when only 1 tire failed is a tough pill to swallow. Even with the wrong size tire installed, I have never experienced a chatter on the KL.
 
#33 ·
I think they are laughing as they have my money... Used car superstore won't yet honor the warranty they included with purchase as Jeep refuses to fix under warranty. Cherokee sits at Jeep dealer while they battle it out. 3 weeks after realizing something is wrong and into second week after drop off, no car, no part replacement and a diagnosis of bad differential.

On the cusp of getting loud at the dealer and making a scene, not good for anyone....
 
#34 · (Edited)
Don't want to keep a multi year thread going, but I looked for definitive answers to this problem and have found nothing. So I thought I would post for future folks that might be interested for another data point.
New to me 2019 Cherokee Latitude with tow group. Rear end definitely binding during sharp slow turns under power only. Driving in a circle in a parking lot type of thing.
It wasn't just a noise...it was actually as if the rear was trying to lock the diff, so can be felt as drag along with the noise. Dealer suggested a SW update to fix the issue. I was skeptical but after 15min at the dealer, noise and binding is gone.

Edit...the following is wrong, proven by Tyler-98-W68, left it here for reference.
So if the the car is supposed to be in FWD only, unless power to the rear is called for due to wheel slippage, I would expect the problem is not in the rear but with the front wheel speed sensors. The symptom manifests at the rear because it's calling for rear power when it's not needed and on a surface where no slipping of the rear, semi-locked diff attached wheels will allow.
The tires were new on this when I got it. I'm wondering if it's possible there is some learning of tire diameter, and as the tire decreases diameter over time, the wheel speed algo compensates. But with new tires and hence, possibly larger or different diameter than the ones as they were removed, does that confuse the speed sensors into thinking there is slippage as the front, so give power to the rear. Anyway, that's my theory:)


I suspect this is a common situation....most people that drive these around probably don't notice the symptoms enough to care.
But at this point, problem is solved for me.
 
#35 ·
Sharp binding while turning is usually the RDM (rear diff going bad)

Pulling the F10 fuse can help diagnose the problem. If the issue goes away with the F10 fuse pulled (which disables the PTU) the RDM doesn't get power. There is no learning of the diameter of tires.

So if the the car is supposed to be in FWD only, unless power to the rear is called for due to wheel slippage, I would expect the problem is not in the rear but with the front wheel speed sensors. The symptom manifests at the rear because it's calling for rear power when it's not needed and on a surface where no slipping of the rear, semi-locked diff attached wheels will allow.
The tires were new on this when I got it. I'm wondering if it's possible there is some learning of tire diameter, and as the tire decreases diameter over time, the wheel speed algo compensates. But with new tires and hence, possibly larger or different diameter than the ones as they were removed, does that confuse the speed sensors into thinking there is slippage as the front, so give power to the rear. Anyway, that's my theory:)
There is no slippage required to send power to the rear there is always power going to the rear wheels at low speed and when the system in functioning properly there is no binding to be felt.
 
#36 ·
Sharp binding while turning is usually the RDM (rear diff going bad)

Pulling the F10 fuse can help diagnose the problem. If the issue goes away with the F10 fuse pulled (which disables the PTU) the RDM doesn't get power. There is no learning of the diameter of tires.



There is no slippage required to send power to the rear there is always power going to the rear wheels at low speed and when the system in functioning properly there is no binding to be felt.
Thanks Tyler. That's interesting. What are your thoughts as to what they changed with the SW update? I'm 100% certain it was showing these symptoms before the update and not doing it afterwards, 15 min later. Do you think they could have reduced front to rear power transfer to the point where it's all front?
I should mention the binding was only under power in a tight radius, slow speed turn. While off throttle and coasting, displayed no noise or bind. I think the update has a ref number that may be on the work order. Does anyone have access to descriptions of SW updates?
Also, I'm curious, are the rear diff clutch packs solenoid controlled? If so, maybe that's what the SW changed...?
Andy
 
#37 ·
That's interesting. What are your thoughts as to what they changed with the SW update? I'm 100% certain it was showing these symptoms before the update and not doing it afterwards, 15 min later. Do you think they could have reduced front to rear power transfer to the point where it's all front?
I hope not because that behavior has been observed after PTU replacement on prior years. I would not expect this to be a fix for 2019+ non trailhawks as they use the 2nd generation AAM Ecotrac AWD system.

The proper operation of the AWD system is to be engaged at low speeds and under a bunch of circumstances. I've outlined them here



I happen to have a 2014 which had a PTU replaced and its awd system was seriously changed (for the worse) after replacement. I've detailed that in this thread here



So in the above case my 2014 never had the binding problem the PTU and RDM just destroyed themselves and the issue with the AWD system came up. After all these years and testing i've come to the conclusion that the clutches in the RDM are worn out and not engaging enough except in the sand/mud mode. So yes it's entirely possible they changed the AWD system programming.

Easy way to test it out. Put it in sand/mud mode and do a slow turn you SHOULD get binding on high traction surfaces at low speed. But not in any of the other modes.

Another way to think of power flow in the AWD system is

Engine sends power to the PTU, PTU spins the drive shaft to the RDM, then the RDM applies clutches which ultimately provide power to the rear wheels. The PTU can spin the driveshaft to the RDM without having the rear wheels receive any power
 
#38 · (Edited)
Love it. You have data to back it up. That is much more information than most of the Jeep employees know about how the system works. I suppose it's all just supposed to work, and we're not supposed to know it's there, but I have a problem where I like to have some understanding of what is going on! Thanks for that info and saving me the trouble of looking further.

"Easy way to test it out. Put it in sand/mud mode and do a slow turn you SHOULD get binding on high traction surfaces at low speed. But not in any of the other modes."

Yes...I was thinking same thing and to try just that this evening after work.

I edited my initial post to keep the topic clear to future readers.

Thanks!
 
#39 ·
Damage to the drivetrain from uneven tyre wear is utter rubbish. That assertion relates to uneven wear causing slight differences in rolling diameters and so different rotational speeds. A moment of contemplation about the effects of even slight pressure differences between tyres - as well as load distribution in the vehicle - not to mention what goes on during normal driving even thru slight curves and turns - ie. anything other than dead straight road - will show any of that nonsense about uneven tyre wear to be the complete rubbish it is.
 
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#40 ·
I have a new to me 2019 Limited 4x4 and this is the exact problem I’ve been having. It was purchased with only 12,000 in June and I started experiencing this. It’s my first 4WD vehicle as I had a FWD version of the same trim with the weak 2.4. It was totaled in an accident and since it was life-saving we decided to get another, but wanted more power with the 3.2L V6. The only ones we could find were 4WD so we took a chance. It drives great (much better than tge 2.4L) except the grinding in turns at low speeds under power. It’s been sitting at the shop for two days due to lack of technicians after making an appointment two weeks in advance (created a frustrating few days, but the GM stepped in and my rental is covered). I got a call today that the rear diff needs to be replaced. They have to order the part or get it from another dealer. Once I knew the issue, it was easy to research. Thanks for continuing this thread as it’s been very helpful in helping me understand the issue!
 
#41 ·
Welcome from Utah!!! That's unfortunate that you have to replace the RDM with such low mileage. I'm guessing, and hoping this is a warranty repair, and not out of pocket. Hopefully this will fix the issue. The RDM is typically not prone to premature failure, but we've seen a few, but usually at much higher mileage, or extreme offroad abuse. Good luck, and please keep us posted after the repairs...😎