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Discussion Starter #181
I'm going to be up your way the last week of june. Perhaps we can meet up and swap trailers for a few miles and see how they do. Schedule permitting, i'd even be willing to let one of your dealership techs do a ride along if it would help for comparison.
I'd love to meet up regardless of all this economy stuff! Anything else you mention is all bonus :) :) :) Lord knows, I'd be ecstatic with your mpg numbers!
 

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I'd love to meet up regardless of all this economy stuff! Anything else you mention is all bonus :) :) :) Lord knows, I'd be ecstatic with your mpg numbers!
I'm finalizing dates with the bosses, but so far looking like i'll be heading up that way June 29th, and heading back July 2nd. If you're around that weekend, lets meet up!
 

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Reading all this brings me back 5 years when I bought my Kia Soul. Kia claimed 34 highway and 29 city. Everyone on the forums was calling BS. The best I got was 29 on the highway, in the middle of the desert going to Vegas. Average city driving was 22-23. Kia and other forum members blamed it all on driver. A couple years later, Kia got suited and changed the numbers for all future Souls. People got reimbursed for the lost money in gas, but I couldn't participate since I was deployed overseas. A bunch of BS.


Just so you TH can have some comparison, I average 20-24 with city/country driving. I hardly ever go above 60 mph. No freeways where I live. No tire mods and/or lift, as of right now. My car never sees 8/9 gear. My best mileage happens when I can get to 55mph and have it shift to 7th.


If that helps, no idea.
 

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@SS_Syndicate, just to make you feel a bit better, here's my numbers from last weekend.

Setup:
No trailer at all.
4-cyl TH
Aussie lift, 255/70/17 KO2's
RRO sliders

(So it's not aerodynamic at all)


I kept track of individual segments just to see how the new tires and lift are affecting me.

40 miles: Driving just barely uphill heading west out of town to get gas, 75-80mph on the freeway:
21mpg

20 miles: From the gas station to the trail. Also barely uphill, but 60mph:
23mpg

15 miles: Offroad trail. Some low range. Steep up to the peak and back down. 5mph.
5mpg :surprise:

20 miles: Back to the interstate. Holding exactly the speed limit to try and max fuel economy. 55-60mph.
25mpg

40 miles: Freeway back home, exactly the speed limit. 75mph.
22mpg


The conclusions from my data: The lift and tires just kills you at high speeds.
And the way you are describing yours as a slug at highway speeds - sounds familiar.
I don't mind so much since most of the time it's driven around town. And our overall average after a month or so is still near 22-23mpg.
But freeway range is limited if we want to go 75mph+.


So, if you do find some success from the dealer, reprogramming, etc. I'd be interested in hearing about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #185 (Edited)
@HazzardSky

I turn 40 on June 30th so there is likely going to be a shindig at our place, you are welcome to join if in the neighborhood and it works out.
@ua_who

According to the sticker, the 3.2L was only 1MPG sacrifice over the 4-banger. This said, I would love your 21/22mpg, even if it was at my highway speeds of 65-72.

I wouldn't hold your breath on anything changing. JeepCares asked around and pretty much got the same brush-offs of mods and driving habits I got. It's BS, but what exactly am I going to do about it?
 

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@HazardSky

I turn 40 on June 30th so there is likely going to be a shindig at our place, you are welcome to join if in the neighborhood and it works out.
@ua_who

According to the sticker, the 3.2L was only 1MPG sacrifice over the 4-banger. This said, I would love your 21/22mpg, even if it was at my highway speeds of 65-72.

I wouldn't hold your breath on anything changing. JeepCares asked around and pretty much got the same brush-offs of mods and driving habits I got. It's BS, but what exactly am I going to do about it?

Thanks for the invite. Not sure where your neighborhood is.... if it's too far, I'd have to stop a few times to fill up on the way :grin:

I gripe a bit when I drive my work truck. It's a new GMC Canyon. V6, more power than my TH, less aerodynamic (or so I think)... but on the highway at 75mph it will still get 23mpg.

The TH is much more fun to drive though. I just keep reminding myself of what my old Wrangler got... with lift and 32" MT's... 13-14mpg. No matter what speed!
 

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Discussion Starter #188
UPDATE! :) :) :)

This last weekend we went up to Bantam. This is nearly an identical trek to our recent trip to the Allegheny NF that prompted this thread. Due to scheduling conflicts (worked out for testing anyway) Our JKU pulled the trailer up, as expected we took about a 2 MPG hit. The KL headed up the following day (unhooked) and averaged..... wait for it.............. 23MPG! :) :) :) To complete the test we pulled the trailer back home yesterday. If anything we had a worse head wind but got nearly 15 MPG with the trailer in tow!

I totally agree with the tech that helped us, that based on the information for what the updates we received covered, they shouldn't have affected our fuel economy. But, they seem to have and rather drastically! I do kind of still wish the trailer towing was a bit better, but I do agree that with our tent sitting way above and adding an easy third more area so it is what it is.... With us getting the 23 MPG uncooked this puts us in a completely acceptable range given our other mods.

So, If you are down on your economy I would suggest making sure you have the latest updates. It seemed to make a rather big difference for us.
 

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UPDATE! :) :) :)

This last weekend we went up to Bantam. This is nearly an identical trek to our recent trip to the Allegheny NF that prompted this thread. Due to scheduling conflicts (worked out for testing anyway) Our JKU pulled the trailer up, as expected we took about a 2 MPG hit. The KL headed up the following day (unhooked) and averaged..... wait for it.............. 23MPG! :) :) :) To complete the test we pulled the trailer back home yesterday. If anything we had a worse head wind but got nearly 15 MPG with the trailer in tow!

I totally agree with the tech that helped us, that based on the information for what the updates we received covered, they shouldn't have affected our fuel economy. But, they seem to have and rather drastically! I do kind of still wish the trailer towing was a bit better, but I do agree that with our tent sitting way above and adding an easy third more area so it is what it is.... With us getting the 23 MPG uncooked this puts us in a completely acceptable range given our other mods.

So, If you are down on your economy I would suggest making sure you have the latest updates. It seemed to make a rather big difference for us.
Think of the mileage improvement if you dropped your speed down from 75Mph. :p

I theorize that there was an AL problem of some nature with the trans or that noise/corruption in a data table was cleared up. The flashes didn't overtly "fix" anything, but put you back in a cleaner state.

23Mpg is a pretty significant change for you, and in line with what I get with a similar vehicle setup (sans trailer). 3Mpg isn't a huge change for your towing economy, except... it is. That's a 25% improvement for you. Also in line with what others have reported and what I would expect.
 

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UPDATE! :) :) :)

This last weekend we went up to Bantam. This is nearly an identical trek to our recent trip to the Allegheny NF that prompted this thread. Due to scheduling conflicts (worked out for testing anyway) Our JKU pulled the trailer up, as expected we took about a 2 MPG hit. The KL headed up the following day (unhooked) and averaged..... wait for it.............. 23MPG! :) :) :) To complete the test we pulled the trailer back home yesterday. If anything we had a worse head wind but got nearly 15 MPG with the trailer in tow!

I totally agree with the tech that helped us, that based on the information for what the updates we received covered, they shouldn't have affected our fuel economy. But, they seem to have and rather drastically! I do kind of still wish the trailer towing was a bit better, but I do agree that with our tent sitting way above and adding an easy third more area so it is what it is.... With us getting the 23 MPG uncooked this puts us in a completely acceptable range given our other mods.

So, If you are down on your economy I would suggest making sure you have the latest updates. It seemed to make a rather big difference for us.
That is a substantial improvement... phewww...

How is the shifting now ? Smoothness and gear selection @speed with different engine loads ?

Yeah and like @Rojhan says... imagine the mileage at 60mph :grin:
 

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Discussion Starter #191
I averaged 10.1 MPG on a largely interstate trip where my speed was kept between 70-72 MPH. It seemed our little KL just didn't have enough grunt and spent large amounts of time in 4th and 5th gear (3000-4000 RPM).
^^^ snip from My original post

SNIP- Think of the mileage improvement if you dropped your speed down from 75Mph. :p
I know you're just poking at me ;) .. but I never said we tow at 75. The 72 really is the upper end for us. When using cruise it is set to 68 which is a real world 70. Now to your point, which I also never denied, It did seem to get even better by slowing to 65, but we wanted to test as identically as possible.

In any case, we are really happy with this, it really is a game-changer for us and the KLs lift with us.
 

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Discussion Starter #192
That is a substantial improvement... phewww...

How is the shifting now ? Smoothness and gear selection @speed with different engine loads ?

Yeah and like @Rojhan says... imagine the mileage at 60mph :grin:
Honestly, we didn't really notice any changes in driving at all... While we did seem to get into 8th a few times, it wasn't for very long at all... We will need to do more driving to report on up/down shifts and 8th utilization on roads we travel more often.

Man, you guys kill me with our speed :) You make us sound like mad-drivers LOL.... It's okay, I enjoy the banter >:D
 

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One thing to keep in mind, @SS_Syndicate, in my experience "slower" isn't necessarily the best fuel economy. Find the right combination of speed/gear that gives you the best economy. I've found, for example - on a different vehicle, that cruising at about 68Mph gave me better economy than 65Mph because it was just enough to kick the trans into overdrive and drop the RPMs.
 

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As Rojhan said, the AL was probably reset. Given enough time it may learn a pattern that allows 8th gear to come into play more often.
 

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Discussion Starter #195
As Rojhan said, the AL was probably reset. Given enough time it may learn a pattern that allows 8th gear to come into play more often.
I know for a fact that the AL was not reset. The tech asked me prior to doing it as he feared we would not be happy with the shifting and trail performance. I thought this was nice. Jeep did suggest this to him, but his thoughts (I agree with) was even if it did help us, the KL would only learn our "habits" again and put us back in the same spot.

Now... This doesn't mean it hasn't been given a new bag of tricks to apply our habits too...
 

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I know for a fact that the AL was not reset. The tech asked me prior to doing it as he feared we would not be happy with the shifting and trail performance. I thought this was nice. Jeep did suggest this to him, but his thoughts (I agree with) was even if it did help us, the KL would only learn our "habits" again and put us back in the same spot.

Now... This doesn't mean it hasn't been given a new bag of tricks to apply our habits too...
Exactly. Like showing 85mph on the speedo while actual speed is 65 >:D

But seriously... :wink: AL happens in 2 different ways, IIRC. Long term and short term memories is the best way I can describe it. One AL routine - the short term one - adapts to immediate driving conditions (and driver inputs). The long term AL is more complex (to me) and happens over thousands of miles...

I've also read a few shifting related TSBs where the descriptions mention something like "a quick relearn" (I forget the exact wording..).
Perhpas the flashes you got - just one of them maybe - did force some kind of relearn on the ZF9, just not a full relearn. I'm just guessing here... but yeah, it sounds like it can do new tricks now.
 

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Glad to see your MPG improved. I found after the dealer did all the updates the flashes improved my mileage even though it wasn't expected to. I have also noticed with new running gear I'm getting better mpg.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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so to piggyback on this, i decided to run my own experiment yesterday. i drove from my house to Assateague Island, MD. the trip is 178 miles and it took us exactly 3 hours and 31 minutes to get there with stopping once at a dunkin drivethrough and a second time at the end to fill up for the beach. my caravan mate was late at our rendevouz point so i went on ahead without him. i took it easy on the way down, trying to allow him the opportunity to make up for some of the lost time. the entire drive down i was setting cruise to 2-3 mph over the limit, so the whole drive i never went over 67, most time i was mid-to-high 50's. when not using cruise, i would feather the gas as much as i could to keep the RPMs down. at the end of the trip, my evic said that i got...26.0 MPG :surprise: that's not mileage i've seen in years, and that's even with two beach chairs and a bag up in the roof basket, four people in the car (ok, two adults and a 5 yr old and 3 month old). it was a 100% highway driving trip, no trailer.

now, on the return trip. my driving was much more "spirited", plus there was a backup on the bay bridge to get back, so my mileage for that leg was 21.5. much lower than on the way down, but still a far cry from the mid-teens the car has given in recent times.

if anything, this proves my earlier point that with any significant amount of additional wind resistance (roof basket, light bars, lift kit, etc) and/or the additional weight/wind resistance of a trailer, these cars do NOT like high speeds, they need to work to maintain speed. when looking at my EVIC, i actually found that the car liked 62ish MPH better than 58, because it would allow the car to shift to 8th. the difference in mileage between 7th gear and 8th gear is pretty substantial, and exponentially so at higher speeds. i found that at speeds in excess of 70 mph, the difference in fuel economy between the two gears (without factoring in towing) is somewhere between 15-16 mpg and 24-26 mpg. yes, it is that substantial. i have no doubt that the updates helped in your fuel economy @SS_Syndicate, however, speed and wind resistance seem to play a much higher factor in these cars than they do in others. my guess is that these cars do not have the needed torque to fight the resistance (which is already apparent by the complete lack of 9th gear), and make up for it by eliminating 8th in those scenarios. dragging along the additions at 75+ mph in 7th gear will put you somewhere around 2-3k rpms (can't remember exactly off the top of my head) which is a killer for fuel economy. 8th gear will keep it under 2k, but will not provide enough torque to keep moving.
 

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I know for a fact that the AL was not reset. The tech asked me prior to doing it as he feared we would not be happy with the shifting and trail performance. I thought this was nice. Jeep did suggest this to him, but his thoughts (I agree with) was even if it did help us, the KL would only learn our "habits" again and put us back in the same spot.

Now... This doesn't mean it hasn't been given a new bag of tricks to apply our habits too...
Dealerships are different of course. The one I go to hooks the vehicle up to their wiTECH machine and lets it rip, hands off. What will be will be. At least that's what they told me, and I always take that with a grain of salt. Did they document what flashes they did do? Would be interesting to see your invoice.
 

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Discussion Starter #200
@Array,

I didn't get an invoice... The tech actually worked on our KL until after much of the place had shut down, since it was all warranty, I just left... I'm sure it's documented though so I will get it.
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@IRSmart,

I think the issue is how the 3.2L's power comes on... I took the dyno chart from the AFE website, but you can see that it almost behaves like an old 2-stroke that hits a powerband. There are pretty drastic changes in the power it generates from 2000 RPM through 2400, and it makes little to no power at all at idle. Since the ZF9 has so many gears it is doing it's best to work with what it has but adding even the slightest of wind drags would force the power requirement up and this means dropping gears.

Now, the question is if a turbo or supercharger would help more (if we pretend one existed). A small quick turbo may be what the Dr. ordered, but IMO a supercharger and for low-end is what the KL desperately needs to make the most of that ZF9.
 

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