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Discussion Starter #1
1. How the heck did Subaru, Volkswagen, Hyundai, and Kia (Kia!) beat Jeep to market with three-row SUVs? In fact, even Tesla (Tesla!) has a three-row pseudo-SUV. And this doesn't even count all the manufacturers that have offered such vehicles for quite some time. I don't personally need or want a three-row SUV, but it's surprising that a brand that specializes in SUVs, and that sells more total SUVs than any other marque in America, should be so slow to enter this segment.

2. How long before Chrysler disappears? I don't mean FCA, of course, nor "Chrysler" as a sort of umbrella term for all FCA's American brands. I'm referring to Chrysler as a specific car brand. Right it now it sells only two vehicles, both relics from another era: a big sedan and a minivan. The best thing you can say about Chrysler as a brand at the moment is that it's not selling as miserably here as Fiat.
 

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3Rivers said:
1. How the heck did Subaru, Volkswagen, Hyundai, and Kia (Kia!) beat Jeep to market with three-row SUVs? In fact, even Tesla (Tesla!) has a three-row pseudo-SUV. And this doesn't even count all the manufacturers that have offered such vehicles for quite some time. I don't personally need or want a three-row SUV, but it's surprising that a brand that specializes in SUVs, and that sells more total SUVs than any other marque in America, should be so slow to enter this segment.
The Dodge Durango has a 3rd row, but it wasn't selling well until the most recent redesign. And as for a second entry into this segment, I've heard that there's an upcoming/returning nameplate of "Grand Wagoneer," which is based on the Grand Cherokee, that'll be a 3-row. I'll bet it wasn't that big of a priority for them, as while there's some demand, it's not as much as 2-row seating.

3Rivers said:
2. How long before Chrysler disappears? I don't mean FCA, of course, nor "Chrysler" as a sort of umbrella term for all FCA's American brands. I'm referring to Chrysler as a specific car brand. Right it now it sells only two vehicles, both relics from another era: a big sedan and a minivan. The best thing you can say about Chrysler as a brand at the moment is that it's not selling as miserably here as Fiat.
I suspect they're planning on making it their "Premium" division, given a little time. We shall see.
 

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Heck, I'll add a third "Question of the week" while I'm thinking about it...

Why is it that the Jeep Compass and Renegade both have pathetically weak engines, with no upgrade options. The Compass uses a 2.4L I-4 and accelerates 0-60 in a pathetic 10.1 seconds. Ug. And the Renegade uses a 1.3L I-4, and while it's a turbo, it's so small that it accelerates 0-60 in a leisurely 9 seconds. Ug, again. C'mon FCA, most people like a vehicle with at least some zip. I suspect both of these models would sell better if you offered an upgraded engine that at lease makes them a little more competitive.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The Dodge Durango has a 3rd row, but it wasn't selling well until the most recent redesign.
Probably in part because it was/is a Dodge -- not exactly a hot-selling brand.

And as for a second entry into this segment, I've heard that there's an upcoming/returning nameplate of "Grand Wagoneer," which is based on the Grand Cherokee, that'll be a 3-row. I'll bet it wasn't that big of a priority for them, as while there's some demand, it's not as much as 2-row seating.
Yes, the most recent Jeep "Five-Year Plan" calls for a new Grand Wagoneer -- in 2022 or so. So the problem isn't that Jeep fails to recognize the market for a three-row SUV; the problem is that Jeep has just been slow compared to almost everyone else.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Why is it that the Jeep Compass and Renegade both have pathetically weak engines, with no upgrade options. The Compass uses a 2.4L I-4 and accelerates 0-60 in a pathetic 10.1 seconds. Ug. And the Renegade uses a 1.3L I-4, and while it's a turbo, it's so small that it accelerates 0-60 in a leisurely 9 seconds. Ug, again. C'mon FCA, most people like a vehicle with at least some zip. I suspect both of these models would sell better if you offered an upgraded engine that at lease makes them a little more competitive.
I don't really have a theory about the Renegade. Maybe the goal of keeping the price down overrode everything else, although you can still add a lot of nonengine options that will push a Renegade's price to far above what a casual buyer might expect.

As for the Compass, I think it's a question of differentiation. As I speculated in another thread, the similarities and overlap between the Compass and the Cherokee in size, price, and functionality probably present marketing difficulties for Jeep. Giving the Compass one or more of the Cherokee's engine upgrades would blur the lines between the two models even more, perhaps to an unacceptable degree.

That said, I agree about the anemic standard engine, and that's one of the reasons I've never even considered a Compass.
 

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3Rivers said:
I don't really have a theory about the Renegade. Maybe the goal of keeping the price down overrode everything else, although you can still add a lot of nonengine options that will push a Renegade's price to far above what a casual buyer might expect.
Yup, but I was just talking about the engine. Clearly aimed at a younger or perhaps "hipster" demographic though.

3Rivers said:
As for the Compass, I think it's a question of differentiation. As I speculated in another thread, the similarities and overlap between the Compass and the Cherokee in size, price, and functionality probably present marketing difficulties for Jeep. Giving the Compass one or more of the Cherokee's engine upgrades would blur the lines between the two models even more, perhaps to an unacceptable degree.
I think the new model looks like it's trying to be a baby Wrangler, which the Cherokee definitely does not. It's actually a pretty good look. Give it a reasonably peppy engine, say turbo the 2.4L, and I think Jeep would have another winner and great seller on their hands. Are you listening, @JeepCares ? :D

3Rivers said:
That said, I agree about the anemic standard engine, and that's one of the reasons I've never even considered a Compass.
Neither would I. And my son is currently shopping for a new vehicle, but won't even consider the Compass because of the pathetic engine. He's not crazy about any of the other Jeep options either, except for the Grand Cherokee, which is a top contender for his eventual selection.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Our 2008 Jeep Commander has 3-row seating.
2010 was the last year for that model. It doesn't do Jeep any good now. Interestingly, a successor (at least in name, the "Grand Commander") was launched by Jeep in China last year. So China gets a three-row Jeep while North America gets the Kia Telluride. FCA strategy. :)
 

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I'd be guessing they feel the need to compete in each segment. A small economical Jeep (renegade) that is a taster for the "real" Jeep brand vehicles as consumers life changes.
The Compass confuses me. It's a well resolved vehicle in terms of style and function (offers 2litre diesel engine in OS markets) and has equal (So close) luggage space to Cherokee. Towing capacity is what separates them (1500kg vs 2200kg) but big price overlap.
For OS markets a hybrid Cherokee would fit the bill.


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Between Jeep, and Ram, those are the two most profitable brands for FCA, and I believe Mike Manley plans on keeping it that way. But, they will need to improve on certain designs, chief among which is powertrains. Now, they currently do have their mild hybrid system in the Wrangler, and Ram 1500, which is a starting point. To build on that, they need to provide the eTorque system to all models, and then work their way to a full-on hybrid system ala Toyota. Personally, though, I'd much prefer if they went with an extended range hybrid ala the Chevy Volt, so only the electric motor is doing the propulsion, while the ICE is the generator. The advantage for something like this is it would be better to control emissions this way since on average, the generator would be running at specific RPMs at all times.

Jeep could also drive themselves into the EV realm as the first real off-roader Electric vehicles, but baby steps I guess. Same with the RAM 1500, although rumors suggest Toyota are already hard at work with a full-on Hybrid Tundra that'll get over 30mpg, and Ford with the F150 are also hard at work going full on EV for one of their models.

The future is electric, so it's only a matter of time before Jeep, and Ram do the same. Whether it's with batteries, or hydrogen fuel cell, the future is EV, and EV only (unless some other form of propulsion gets invented).
 
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3River said:
Probably in part because it was/is a Dodge -- not exactly a hot-selling brand.
Actually, they're doing ok, although not spectacularly. Taken from http://fcauthority.com ,

Overall Dodge 447-503k for 2015-2018
Grand Caravan 101-152k
Journey 89-107k
Charger 80-95k
Durango 65-69k
Challenger 65k

Then there are their Ram brand trucks sales, which sold 489-597k from 2015-2018. So close to or over a million units per year, which ain't too shabby, so to speak. :)

3River said:
Yes, the most recent Jeep "Five-Year Plan" calls for a new Grand Wagoneer -- in 2022 or so. So the problem isn't that Jeep fails to recognize the market for a three-row SUV; the problem is that Jeep has just been slow compared to almost everyone else.
I completely agree.
 

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Between Jeep, and Ram, those are the two most profitable brands for FCA, and I believe Mike Manley plans on keeping it that way. But, they will need to improve on certain designs, chief among which is powertrains. Now, they currently do have their mild hybrid system in the Wrangler, and Ram 1500, which is a starting point. To build on that, they need to provide the eTorque system to all models, and then work their way to a full-on hybrid system ala Toyota. Personally, though, I'd much prefer if they went with an extended range hybrid ala the Chevy Volt, so only the electric motor is doing the propulsion, while the ICE is the generator. The advantage for something like this is it would be better to control emissions this way since on average, the generator would be running at specific RPMs at all times.

Jeep could also drive themselves into the EV realm as the first real off-roader Electric vehicles, but baby steps I guess. Same with the RAM 1500, although rumors suggest Toyota are already hard at work with a full-on Hybrid Tundra that'll get over 30mpg, and Ford with the F150 are also hard at work going full on EV for one of their models.

The future is electric, so it's only a matter of time before Jeep, and Ram do the same. Whether it's with batteries, or hydrogen fuel cell, the future is EV, and EV only (unless some other form of propulsion gets invented).
Well put.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Actually, they're doing ok, although not spectacularly. Taken from http://fcauthority.com ,

Overall Dodge 447-503k for 2015-2018
Grand Caravan 101-152k
Journey 89-107k
Charger 80-95k
Durango 65-69k
Challenger 65k
450-500 thousand vehicles sold per year is enough to hold the Grim Reaper at bay, I suppose, but let's remember that this is the total for an entire division. The Toyota RAV4 sold 427,170 units all by itself in 2018.

Then there are their Ram brand trucks sales, which sold 489-597k from 2015-2018.
I remember when "Ram" used to be the name of a truck line from Dodge, rather than a separate division, but the latter is how FCA has positioned it. So Ram would sail on even if the Dodge car division were shut down. To be clear, I'm not predicting that this will happen soon. What I'm saying in this thread is that the Chrysler division (if we can still call it that for two models) is on its last legs.
 

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450-500 thousand vehicles sold per year is enough to hold the Grim Reaper at bay, I suppose, but let's remember that this is the total for an entire division. The Toyota RAV4 sold 427,170 units all by itself in 2018.

I remember when "Ram" used to be the name of a truck line from Dodge, rather than a separate division, but the latter is how FCA has positioned it. So Ram would sail on even if the Dodge car division were shut down. To be clear, I'm not predicting that this will happen soon. What I'm saying in this thread is that the Chrysler division (if we can still call it that for two models) is on its last legs.
Agreed on all points. :) I just hate to see another great American brand go by the wayside, and am hoping that won't happen.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I just hate to see another great American brand go by the wayside, and am hoping that won't happen.
I can proudly say that I have owned no fewer than three vehicles from U.S. marques that went extinct shortly thereafter:
  • Eagle Vision -- A sporty, roomy FWD sedan from the then Chrysler Corp. with a good V6. Not long after I traded it in, the Eagle division/brand was defunct.
  • Pontiac Grand Prix GTP -- Fun-to-drive car with a supercharged 3800 Series II engine. Not too many years after I traded it in, the Pontiac division was defunct.
  • Mercury Milan -- Solid sedan with a V6 and, unusually for the time, AWD. Even before I traded it in, the Mercury division was defunct!
 

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I can proudly say that I have owned no fewer than three vehicles from U.S. marques that went extinct shortly thereafter:
  • Eagle Vision -- A sporty, roomy FWD sedan from the then Chrysler Corp. with a good V6. Not long after I traded it in, the Eagle division/brand was defunct.
  • Pontiac Grand Prix GTP -- Fun-to-drive car with a supercharged 3800 Series II engine. Not too many years after I traded it in, the Pontiac division was defunct.
  • Mercury Milan -- Solid sedan with a V6 and, unusually for the time, AWD. Even before I traded it in, the Mercury division was defunct!
So, what I get from this, is that you are not allowed to trade your Jeeps in!
 
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